My take on the MLS Expansion Seven

Good evening folks. Apologies for the heavy coverage of the Red Bulls perfomance-enhancing drug suspension, but sometimes a story can take over a day.

For those of you a bit tired of that story, you can read my ESPN.com story on the seven teams preparing to battle for the two MLS expansion slots. You will notice that each bidder has a grade with their write-up. Those grades are the values of their bids, according to information I've gathered from various sources. It is still clearly subjective, but the grades are not my odds on who will get bids, nor my personal preferences.

There are no such things as perfect bids in this particular process, but you can figure out the stronger candidates from the weaker ones.

Feel free to discuss the story, and the grades, in the comments section below (and for those of you who have been waiting for This Weekend's Soccer on TV, I will crank that out as soon as I finish my ESPN.com piece on the Red Bull suspensions).

Comments

[chris]

Ives,

I agree. I think MLS will go with one Canadian and one American team. Montreal is clearly in the front for a variety of reasons(stadium,fanbase,possible Canadian tv contract). The American bid seems completely up for grabs as each city faces soma tough obstacles ahead. No clue who would be in front here. In conclusion, I say it will be Montreal and Miami. Barca's weight and FIU stadium put them over the top.

[The AMT]

I really want to see Montreal and Portland, but my question is whether the Don will be able to say no to Barca, who might not come back in a couple years.

I think we'll see Montreal and Miami this time around, with NYC and Portland by 2012.

[Murphy]

Ives:

Good article. Just one question: did I read that paragraph on Vancouver right? A 59,000 seat stadium for a USL team?

[RedStateJim]

Miami for the ownership group (I heard that Marcelo Claure is a team owner in Bolivia, is that correct). It will be successful there and who doesn't like the idea of going to Miami in the early and late season of MLS.

Montreal for the natural fit for a TFC rivalry, another strong ownership group and another great cosmopolitan city.

These two additions would bring the MLS to the 4 corners of North America.

Ives, can't one of these ownership groups buy KC and move it?

[DeliBelly]

I'll cast my vote with Montreal and St. Louis. Montreal for all the reasons Ives described. And St. Louis because it has a great soccer fan base and would generate an instant rivalry against the Chicago and Kansas City teams.

Miami and Atlanta have some appeal because they are very large media markets and there are no MLS teams in the southeast. On the other hand, the summer heat in Miami and Atlanta would be brutal from June through September, which makes for unexciting soccer.

[dgfunk]

Please God, no Miami or St. Louis in this. As a Seattle resident, gotta say the prospect of either Vancouver or Portland getting in, but I think for the sake of MLS we need Portland in the league. I don't think the rest of the country understands just how intense a Seattle - Portland MLS rivalry would be.

Ives, do you think the Barca appeal could mean we actually see two US expansions, Portland and Miami, instead of another Canadian team? I know conventional wisdom suggests that one Canada team will be in this bid, but as long as TFC keeps setting the standard for fan support, do they really need a local rival? Just look what their road trip to Columbus early in the season did for the Columbus support.

[Reid]

Enjoyed the article. I was waiting for an article with more objectivity instead of the opinionated pieces.
I'd be very interested to find the detail of exactly what these bids entail.

[alex]

Ives, if I had one complaint it's that your right so often that it's impossible to argue with your articles.

Can't say i would have ranked those teams any differently.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Great article ives, basically how i see it too with some extra points i hadnt thought of.

AMT- Good question, the next question would be why would you want a management and team that isnt willing to wait another couple of years if they didnt get in the first round, that suggests perhaps they arent as serious as people think they are. That being said it really is a chase between Miami and Portland IF Montreal is certain, godwilling

[cam]

there is no way in hell that the mls says no to barcelona. not only that, its the largest market, by far in the us (i dont know how it stacks up against montreal, though). as for the other team, i say montreal by a nose over portland... portland has the best fans but that doesn't mean that montreal fans aren't good fans as well. also, montreal is a much larger market, and the stadium situation is better. portland will get theirs one day, though.

[Willardo DuPont]

Montreal is the easy pick. After that, it's pretty tough as you point out. I would prefer to see St. Louis so we can build more momentum in the central US. If the St. Louis franchise can grab a fan base like the St. Louis Cardinals have, you could have a great fan base in about 7 different states.

The Miami bid scares me. I really don't like the idea of an outside club using an MLS club to establish their brand a la Chivas USA. We need to build our own unique American brand. Based soley on attendance, Chivas USA looks to be a failure thus far.

[Ted]

Good article.

[PCFC]

Ives,

I agree and disagree. I do not see how we can bash the city of Ottawa as a simple reason why MLS can't handle the area when we have RSL, which might I add turned out to be a success (not to mention Columbus [and I don't want to hear population #'s only pop density]).

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Ottawa deserves a team in this line-up or the next, but I do think they have the market for what makes sports good, small diehard fanbases. And with no MLB and NBA team, they have an open-niched market. Both good ownership AND ambitious stadium plan...something that impresses me and almost every other bid doesn't have.

If they do Miami, they better do it right! I mean, shouldn't NYC have a MUCH better fanbase than LA, TFC or DC, but we don't. Why? It was and still isn't being process right. No Red-Bull-New York-esqe "Barca Miami!"

Like you said, Vancouver is in a weird position. They are competing with two niches - Pacific NW and Canada and seem to be losing in both. But if...and i mean if...they can get that downtown stadium...what a glorious identity the Whitecaps will have in Vancouver. The MLS will need WFC!

Like most, Montreal, Portland, and St. Louis are my favorites. However, my major criticisms:
Portland - The conversion of PGE better be ambitious...NO MORE CRAPPY 1/2 STADIUMS! I thought that was a requirement.
Montreal - Again, I would love to see $$$ put into the stadium expansion...I mean a lot of $$$ so it has an identity, not a college soccer field.
St. Louis - Everyone talks about the great history that it has...but NYC had the history as well. Does STL still have that history???

My vote:
1)Montreal
2)Portland
3)St. Louis

4)Vancouver slides in if Montreal or Portland fail.

[socmin]

Another well-written article. I also do not think that Miami can be ignored with Barcelona in the mix. Yes, it will be hot- but I don't remember too many unexciting games this season in Houston- but I do for many of the northern cities.
If the Montreal bid can lead to a Canadian TV contract, they would be a no-brainer. For all the corporate-hate that some fans have, this would help to further the financial basis of this 13 year-old league.
When soccer is more firmly implanted, then taking a chance on places like Atlanta, Raleigh, and others will make more sense.

[Tony in Quakeland]

The way you describe it, Montreal seems nearly a lock.

The companion article would be speculation on movement. What are the odds that Cooper can persuade KC's owners to join forces and move cross state or sell to his group? Where will Chivas go? (San Diego?)

[KingSnake]

Last thing an American soccer league needs is the Garber's old NFL butt buddy's jerking their strings ...

[martha in miami]

Nice read. The Mia. Herald had a great front pg. article yesterday by the dynamic Michelle Kaufmann, quoting the ever delightful Ray Hudson, believe me he will convince the doubters too! Ives is there any way you would be kind enough to copy all my passionate Miami Fusion oriented posts and send it to the powers that be? In return I will host you when you come visit, and get you scoops that only I can with the players, coaches, and mgt. Thats a story for another day, lol! Thanks Ives!

[SonicDeathMonkey]

Enjoyed the article Ives, although Montreal and Portland wouldn't be "building stadiums from sratch". From what I can see, St. Louis is turning out to be a sham. Cooper won't name his other investors? Does he even have other investors? And I thought St. Louis was a done deal. And for RedJim, how do you come to the conclusion Miami will be successful? Is it because of how well they did the last time a MLS team was there?

[Rudy]

Too bad we can't have them all. I see positives in each potential location.

[Scott A]

Good article, but I'm interested in the actual stadium plans with their location, etc. I don't have time to look through each of the investment group's portfolios hah

[BlueWhiteLion]

Ives, I would have liked more info on the stadium status for Miami: FIU, then . . . ?

That being said, anybody who starts "Miami failed . . ." really doesn't know the Miami situation. It goes beyond just saying the fans had to drive to Lockhart Stadium in Ft. Lauderdale. I am sure that is part of the struggle, but even with that, by their last year, they averaged about 11.5K per game. The team made it to the semi-finals. Their coach was a media darling, always being quoted on NBC6 and others. Their owner pulled out. Why? I don't know. Every reason to believe the team would have experienced more financial and fan success, including another shot at the Cup.

No way you can argue with Barca getting Miami. That almost alone puts them in B+ range. I would like to hear more about the stadium, though.

Montreal intrigues me, but only because of its potential for instant local success. Strong rivalry with Toronto, and stadium income. My guess is they will get the nod over Portland. But I think the MLS could possibly wait and use them to expand in the next round. What are the rules for their makeup of nationalities? Do they need more Canadians?

As for St. Louis, do they really have that strong an ownership group? I heard rumblings about the lead guy arguing about the franchise fee. Is that correct? If so, I wouldn't be surprised to see Miami and Montreal be the picks.

[BlueWhiteLion]

As for Barca USA, I have argued against, but now I really don't care. I think Barcelona is almost a brand name of its own. Like people call tissue "Kleenex" even though "Puffs" makes them. Or "Frigidaire" instead of refrigerator. I would rather not have that name, or ones resembling it, but on the other hand, it ain't bad. And Barcelona (a team I can't stand) would want it's name sake to succeed. I really don't rip on Real Salt Lake, either. So what that it really means "royalty". Geesh. chill!

[KC]

dgfunk write... " I don't think the rest of the country understands just how intense a Seattle - Portland MLS rivalry would be."

No offense but I don't think the rest of the country would care about that rivalry...that rivalry would matter to only 2 cities fans.

St Louis deserves the team more than any other location mentioned. The area means so much to US Soccer history, it deserves its own team. I'm not from St Louis so I have no bias there either.

To me its St Louis and then Montreal & Miami fighting for the second spot.

[Joseph D'Hippolito]

I think a lot of people are overstating Montreal's case. First, the team is being propped up by the provincial government. Second, doesn't Arsenal have its own debt problems? How can Arsenal ownership support another team across the Atlantic. Third, will Montreal be a marketing strategy for Arsenal as Miami is for Barcelona?

[CD]

I think Montreal would be a definite boom for the blogusphere. The TFC fans seem to get really over the top anytime there is a critical piece about their club. If we brought some French Canadians into the mix I think some of these blogs would get real energized.

I do think Montreal and Portland would be nice but at some point the MLS has to have a presence in the Southeast and get a real US television contract to bring in some usable revenue. Big TV money is next huge piece to the puzzle.

[Mike]

ummm, Mr. Joseph D'Hippolito, Gilette owns LIVERPOOL - and the Montreal Canadiens of the NHL.

[socmin]

Excellent perspective CD.

[Sterlinho]

TO KC:
"No offense but I don't think the rest of the country would care about that rivalry...that rivalry would matter to only 2 cities fans."

MLS and ESPN push Derby's like DC-NY, and the Super Classico. The LA Derby has it's own sponsor in Honda and my friends and I get together just for that game when it comes around. If the games are entertaining and hard fought, then people will take notice.

St. Louis is a joke. They have no stadium, big name investor for MLS to show off, and nearby KC is struggling. If they want a team right now then they should buy KC.

Bring on Miami and Portland. This is a U.S. league so preference should be given to U.S. cities. You can't ignore Portland's Timber Army and the Paulsen name with a stadium that only needs to be renovated. MLS also can't ignore the opportunity to be affiliated with Barelona's global presence. Miami is the perfect place for retired footballers. This will finally stop the NY fans from thinking they're getting Henry.

[alex]

What's with some of the comments above? It seems like some people have been mis-read a few things.

Mtl already has a stadium.
Gillette owns Liverpool not arsenal and he's only 1/2 the ownership team, maybe less if you consider his proportionate share.

One last point i'll make is that having a successful USL team has never been a predictor of MLS success. Toronto's USL team bombed but they have some of the best attandance in the league.

[BlueWhiteLion]

LOL, Mike . . . Liverpool! lololololol

[alex]

One last thing i'd point out is that a TV contract doesn't just show up because you're in multiple markets.

You have to get genuine fan interest started and build rapid interst in your product.

As much as i'm not a fan of the sport NASCAR did an excellent job of this. NHL did what MLS is trying to do and failed.

No more subburb teams and low quality bids. Keep the stadiums in the city and go places that are more established first.

[Simon B]

It's just too bad Vancouver doesn't have their waterfront stadium yet, if they had it, it would be a lock for them to get it coming off a usl win. Judging by the drawings of it, it would be pretty amazing.

Montreal makes alot of sense for all the above reasons. the montreal tfc rivalry would be so heated right away. For balancing sake i think Portland, given it's west coast, if they get the stadium stuff in order.

[TheNug]

First, I do believe that it will be 1 CAN and 1 US team.

Ives, I agree with your assessment on Montreal and Vancouver.
With everything that Montreal offer, they look solid, and to me, the closest thing to a guaranteed lock.

If this turns out to be true, this obviously puts Vancouver in a tight spot; there's no way that the MLS is going to introduce 2 Canadian teams at the same time.

After Montreal, I would have to say that Portland and Miami have the best chances.

I would give the edge to Portland because of their strong fan base and the fact that they're based in the west.

Either an existing team (Kansas) gets moved to the Western conference or they'll try to even it up with Portland or the conferences will be unequal.

Out of those three choices, Portland getting the bid seems most likely to me.

[TheNug]

O, forgot a fourth option; MLS goes to a single table. No idea what would happen then.

[satan]

Joseph D'Hippolito -- what do you mean the provincial government "propped up" the Impact? what does that mean? they were partners with the Saputo family to resurrect soccer in the city. And it worked.
How that "overstates" a case for Montreal doesn't make any sense.
Secondly, Gillett doesn't own Arsenal -- he owns Liverpool. More importantly, he owns the Montreal Canadiens, and has been a fantastic, beloved owner. He resurrected the team from a very low period and now they are the class of the league.

[Klaus]

Growing up playing soccer in the Midwest, it is hard not to root for St. Louis landing a MLS franchise. However, the fanbase in Portland is impressive for the size of its market and the possible influence of Barcelona along with its history of player development would be difficult to pass up. Regardless of who lands the two sides, it is exciting that their is so much interest in the sport domestically. I can only hope the league continues to grow as an entity and as a product.

[lassidawg]

There is a reaspn that they push NE/DC and LA, it is because of the size of the cities.
I am in Seattle and we would love the rivalry, but now one else would care.
It is all going to come down to money.

I would prefer Portland & St Louis, but I think it will be Montreal and Miami.

[Xander Crews]

No Canadian teams. If Canada wants top-flight professional soccer, then let them form their own domestic league. You mean they can't find 6-7 cities that can have teams, with 2-3 having two clubs? Between Toronto and the three teams in this bid process, there's four, why can't Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have two clubs each?

Miami should be a lock, then take your pick of Portland or St. Louis. I'd probably say Portland to help balance out the east-west numbers, but either is okay.

[Jeffrey]

So is the MIami team going to have an air conditioned dome to play in? Already the heat in Dallas gets ridiculous in our MLS summer league.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

xander- do your research, itll never happen, we've tried. i do believe we discussed this in another thread. little has changed in 3 or so weeks. canada will remain a small part of the mls. a small, well supported, well financed part.

[Drew D (From FL)]

Well, heres my perspective. This is copy/pasted from another forum, not to mention that I compiled all of this information and typed it in a matter of an hour, and the fact that half of this is is a pissed off floridian rant that theres no team in the southeast. There is substance to it though.

Okay, after actually doing some homework and whatnot on miami, I can tell you these things.

There is more comparison to the draw at Marlin/Dolphin games and A new Miami MLS franchise than there is to a draw at an old Miami Fusion game and a new Miami MLS Franchise. In fact, there is pretty much no comparison between the fusion and a new miami franchise as far as geography goes. I'm not sure how many of you have actually BEEN to miami. I have, at least twice a year every year of my life if not more (Familia), and Geography-wise, it should have been a crime to even put miami in front of the word fusion. The stadium they played in (Lockhart stadium) is now used as a field for florida atlantic university. Anyone know where FAU is? Boca Raton! for those who don't know that is a good hour and a half if not longer from inner miami, and 3+ cities away (west palm, hollywood, ft. lauderdale). Of course nobody went to their games, only people that probably did were their 1,000 crazy hooligan fans who posted on their forum every day (Sounds familiar eh?) and i bet half of them were from boca! John said it himself that they had good showings when games were played at the orange bowl. I actually went to lockhart stadium to see the 2006 6A mens soccer state championship for HS when I was a senior in high school. Not only was it far out of the way, but even with the distance the game drew a fairly large crowd.

The new MLS miami franchise bid is much different. The stadium they plan to use until a SSS is built (which they have said they have plans to build when a franchise comes to miami) is FIU Stadium, or "The Cage", which is only a few minutes away from MIA (Miami International Airport), Miami International Mall, and the Dolphin Mall. Not exactly in the middle of the hood, but believe me when I say MUCH, much closer than lockhart stadium. Now there is the arguement that it wouldn't be a SSS, and that it'd be near FIU campus and they would have to share it with FIU. However, this is only a temporary venue, and it might also build ties with the college community as well as the inner city fans of miami, as well as the regular sports fanatics in miami. Not to mention that as of now, football is the only sport played by FIU in that stadium. Dolphin stadium is more comparable just because at least it is in miami, although it is on the border of north miami and hollywood, which isn't exactly ideal positioning. Then again, neither is FIU's stadium, but neither are even comparable to lockhart stadium and the distance miami natives would have to travel to get there. Also note that "The Cage" is right off the florida turnpike, which is one of the central routes of transportation throughout miami. Not to mention it is right outside opa-locka and hialeah, 2 sub-cities of miami known for their hispanic population.

The other point I wanted to stress was that if Miami is in fact granted expansion in 2011, it's temporary venue will look like a professional stadium should, as it is currently undergoing a 4 year expansion program on a stadium that is only 13 years old. See for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIU_Stadium

Now I'm not saying Miami is the frontrunner for one of the expansion slots, we all know it isn't and with the destruction of the fusion it has many legacy MLS fans throwing up red flags with failure in mind. All I am saying is that Miami didn't just throw this bid out there for shits and giggles, they actually have somewhat of their act together. Throw in the fact that European Club Stars see miami as a nice place to settle in the states, the support of Barcelona and a billionaire owner, and suddenly it definately isn't a bid to overlook, especially considering there isn't a team in the southeast region yet.Oh, and by the way, if I haven't said it enough, THE SOUTHEAST NEEDS A TEAM. Miami, Atlanta, whoever. We need one.

[chris]

Miami is a friggin' joke. It's a rotten sports town with fair weather fans that had its MLS franchise contracted. And having FC Barcelona front this bid would create another ChivasUSA disaster and make MLS into a psudo minor league outfit to the eyes of the soccer world. Anyone who thinks this is a great idea needs to be hauled off and lobotomized.

Montreal, Portland, St. Louis, and Vancouver should be the ones given serious consideration. MLS needs to be in places where the game is loved and appreciated, not where Don Garber thinks he can get his grubby little hands on some fake gold. Stay the hell away from Miami, MLS.

[Scooter]

Great Article! You do a great job of providing insight on strengths/weaknesses of all the bids... and as always I trust your comments probably reflect the MLS insider opinions. One interesting thing to note is that Canadians know that Vancouver really is a stronger market for the MLS fora lot of reasons (which I will list later). So its very interesting to see MLS rank higher from an American perspective. montreal is a very tough pro sports market for a few reasons:
- Montreallers love hockey and only have a passing interest in other sports (witness the departure of the expos and the hot and cold history of CFL teams in montreal)
-local media is french - thus montreal doesn't help league's garner national english media coverage in canada
The montreal ownership mightlook strong on the surfacce but the Saputo family has longbeen rumored to be mobbed-up... its interesting that this gets not play in the US media.

[Chris]

If it must be two.
1. Montreal (furthest along soccer stadium needs small amount of renos and leads the CCL in points)
2. Miami (SUM partner Barca and FIU stadium looks like a great temp venue)

If it can be four.
3. Vancouver (Building a professional team and organization while they apply for an MLS team not sitting around waiting for one to be given to them - St.Louis)
4. Atlanta or Portland both have intriguing attributes that must be considered for this fourth team.

[BlueWhiteLion]

chris(7:16am post), your argument is nothing but an emotion laden rant. It would be stronger if you would back it up with argument and fact. I suppose you come close with your "Chivas" parallel, but go into more detail as to WHY you believe it is a parallel, and why Chivas has failed? Maybe you have a point, but for now, it is obscured.

[BlueWhiteLion]

i brought this up earlier, I would be interested in input: what is the requirement for Canadian MLS teams? Are they weighted toward Canadian players? If so, would expansion there be less of a "drain" or a watering down of the pool of talent in the US? If that is so, why not add four teams? Two US (Miami/Portland/St. Louis--perhaps move the Wizards to St. Louis) and two Canadian (Vancouver/Montreal). Perhaps that is what their strategy will be. Of course, the next time around may include the Mets with a NY team, and that will almost certainly flush out other cities.

I am curious, though. With a tinkering around of the foreign players ratio, and an increase in the cap, perhaps we could expand by 6 or 8 cities and not see much of a drop in player talent. Draw in some more SAm/CentAm players where the economy is not as good and the draw to living in the US is high.

Ohh, that brings up another point: what effect will the current economic downturn have on this expansion?

[Drew D (From FL)]

Glad to see the ignorant faithful still can make it out here to counter my arguement with a 3 sentencer that ive already proved to be irrelevant. Miami has one of the largest hispanic communities in the USA and just because nobody goes to see a football team that hasnt won a ring since the 70's or a baseball team that does nothing but trade away it's talent, doesn't mean tons of people won't come out to see a fresh new MLS franchise based in the city with a new stadium backed by a billionaire and one of the most prestige clubs in the world. Mind you that this is an untapped market as well, isn't that the purpose of expansion? To expand your viewing audience? But you all are right, lets just add 5 more teams up north and northwest so the other northern teams and already established viewers have someone to fight with when they get bored. Why don't we just change the league name to the NASL, seems more fitting to me.

[Drew D (From FL)]

Oh, and on top of that chris (Yes, that was you I was directing that to. Yes, the one who posted at 07:16 AM), you're comparison of Barca to Chivas is absolutely not comparable. Why? Because LA already has another team (Galaxy), which id hope you know divides fanbase, while Miami does not. And sorry to Guadalajara fans, but theres a difference in having chivas and having barcelona backing your franchise.

[sharmon]

Ives, well reasoned article. Hard for me to disagree. However, I did feel your St. Louis investor information was a bit off. Why would Cooper bother to submit again if he didn't have the backing. While he hasn't released the names, I'd assume he did something with all the time from MLS telling him to get investors until now.

Here's some additional information on Cooper's group. No name, but a figure of $500 million.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/4874DCB646EA3D02862574E60013D24B?OpenDocument

[Nick from Big Soccer]

I think it will be Montreal and Portland.

Montreal has it all, Ownership, Stadium (upgradeable), Demographics, fan base and rivalries with TFC.

Portland seems to have the strongest US bid. Solid Ownership, Specific Stadium Plans and excellent demographics, support and rivalry with Seattle.

[John]

1. It's humorous to read some of the comments about various markets. Miami "failed"--umm...that as a about a cheap owner with no cash (Horowitz) and they were drawing numbers comparable to most of the rest of MLS. One city is better than another? They're all good candidates. And let's be clear: with a 20k seat stadium, you don't need to be NYC. In fact, probably the BEST demographic market in US/Canada for soccer would be NYC--and just how have the RedBulls worked out attendance-wise?

2. I think it will come down to ownership and stadium status. Everything else is far down the ladder. Yes, Portland-Seattle would be a great rivalry. Yes, another Canadian city might duplicate TFC (I doubt it but that's another matter). Yes, St. Louis has heritage. Yes, the South and middle of the US is under-represented. And none of those are reasons to put a team in. Chivas, RSL, Columbus are all examples of clubs going in not because of markets or great fit but because: (a) committed ownership and (b) commitment to a stadium (or one already in place).

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with telling a good USL city like Rochester, Vancouver, Montreal, Charleston...."hey--good bid but you just didn't make our top two--tough luck!". Nothing against USL but drawing at the USL level doesn't demonstrate a team has the stadium and ownership package and while I wouldn't discriminate against USL cities, I also don't see a reason to cannibalize that league either--there are more than enough great opportunities to expand into.

3. I don't think it should be a deciding point but I do think it needs to be a consideration....there just aren't enough Canadian players good enough to start in MLS right now that are affordable for a second Canadian side. Unless we continue to do what we've done with TFC--basically make it an American team with 2 Canadians starting and a few others seeing some minutes. And long-term (ie: next 2-3 years), that's a bad thing. If people thing the talent pool for American players is going to be thinned out, look at the Canadians. TFC got a late start on the Academy thing and it's unrealistic to expect all the good Canadians to leave Europe and take paycuts.

[martha in miami]

Again all you hater, doubters, negative posers I invite you to visit, you will want to put a team here, trust me! Having been a fan since opening day Metro and played in Miami 17 years, Del Piero like ofcourse, I have met every nationality of the alphabet and they all attended our beloved Fusion. The team was disbanded in a knee jerk reaction to 9.11 splintering all our lives, coaches, players, and fans. We were heartbroken and cant wait to recreate the magic of winning the shield once again!!!

[chris]

This is to the Miami pimps who question my post.

Dear Paste Eaters,

Because you people live in that soon to be underwater city you are disqualified from making any logical sense.

First, yours is a terrible sports town. We see far more empty seats at your home games in all sports than actual people. Countless statistics prove you support your home teams poorly. You're fair weather fans who only support the team when they are close to a championship. See the Marlins. See the Heat. Your town won't put up with MLS because the parity and the salary cap means periods of feast and famine. Only the wishful thinkers will show up clustered in one small section of the stadium.

Second, FC Barcelona doesn't care about developing soccer in North America. They're only doing this in order to try and pimp their brand name. They're a rich club that believes they can get a leg up on their European rivals, like Real Madrid who have a partnership in Salt Lake City of all places. Barca's president Joan Laporta has come under fire because of his leadership and questionable decisions that nearly got him fired. And this bid is the latest in these types of decisions.

The Chivas factor is also in place because Barca has as many detractors as they have supporters. Like Chivas you will get people who already support Barca to show up and turn away others who will not support them. In the highly partisan world of soccer support, that's a guarantee. Toronto nearly named its club Inter Toronto but found many would not support it because of the suggestion of an Inter Milan connection, even though there wasn't. They made a wise decision by sticking with the generic Toronto FC name.

Third, MLS is looking at places where teams control their own buildings and all the revenues. Montreal already has a stadium that can quickly be expanded. St. Louis has a deal in place where a stadium will be built once they are given a team. FIU Stadium is owned by the university. It does not fit that business mode. And if you try and sell the notion that it's just a temporary venue in hopes of a new stadium down the line, well then Vancouver kicks your ass left, right, and center.

You keep saying the reason you lost your team was because of underfunded local ownership. Yet MLS has awarded six new teams since they "made a mistake" in pulling out of Miami. Including San Jose, who lost their team because the owner didn't like the stadium they were playing in, the same kind of stadium your bid is proposing. And yet they got back in because of strong local ownership fronting the team.

You call yourselves a strong soccer market. Yet when the time was needed to form a local grassroots effort to save the team, you failed miserably. And now you're pinning your hopes on an entity based in Europe who are in this for an ego boost.

Bottom line: Any way you slice it, you had your chance, and you blew it. You. Don't Deserve. Another. Team!

There are other cities in the mix that have stronger soccer backgrounds than yours who deserve the chance to give what MLS truly needs, support from the bottom up. Miami's is a house of cards waiting for a tropical breeze to blow it over.

Now run along you pathetic posers, and go back to your paste supper.

[Joseph D'Hippolito]

My mistake regarding Gillett and Liverpool. Nevertheless, does Liverpool have any debt problems, like other EPL clubs? That would make a big difference. If not, then a Gillett-Saputo partnership makes sense, especially if the Canadiens have no financial problems.

[scott47a]

Ives,

You are right on with this. I think the MLS has shown a desire to court Miami even before Barca and the other possible owner joined in. For that reason, I think they are probably ahead of Portland.

Plus the mayor there has pushed for a new SSS near the Orange Bowl site, even without rich owners in tow. Should be easy to convince him once the owners throw in half the dough.

I feel bad for Portland and Vancouver, though. Those are some real soccer-loving cities. But it seems to me that Montreal is so good that it makes Vancouver impossible. They aren't going to add two Canadian teams ahead of all of the U.S. cities. And Miami may ace out Portland because of the things I just spelled out.

Cooper in St. Louis needs to enlist the Busch family or something.

[BlueWhiteLion]

LOL, chris, haven't you read "how to win friends and influence people?" Or is that not yet offered at the sophomore level?

Your only point worth noting is the stadium issue. I would like to hear more about Barca's plans for a SSS. I agree that is essential. Perhaps you raise an area of concern when you reference the fickle fanbase of some of the teams. But again, your evidence is more knee-jerk than knowledge based. Fact is that attendance WAS climbing with the Fusion, ending with an 11.5K avg. Not great, but it was climbing. Secondly, we are talking about attendance of 20K or less for far less games than are required by MLB. Thirdly, some sports have thrived in Miami, even with dismal team records. Maybe not sellouts, but we are talking about stadiums that hold far more than 20K. But as for the rest of your case, it is short on reason and factual knowledge, and blinded by vitriol. You can't make a great case for your views like that.

By the way, what is a paste supper?

[BlueWhiteLion]

Another shift in Miami's favor: the redevelopment of the OB site. That was not in the works for the Fusion. Fans all over the city are fed up with the past wrangling over sites. Now however, we have an opportunity to build both a baseball stadium, and potentially a football (soccer) one. As for those of you who say it gets hot there: SURE it does. Although I don't think it is as hot as some people say. Rarely over the low 90's, if ever, and there is an ocean breeze. Orlando is far hotter with less breeze. Probably the same for Dallas. Real players aren't bothered by it.

[Androo]

I've heard a few people, (including Ives), say that Montreal getting a team may result in a canadian national tv deal. I find this unlikely. Having only two canadian teams in MLS with both of them in the east just wouldn't convince CBC or anyone else that they should commit to a national tv deal, (even if those cities are the biggest in the country). I don't think it's likely to happen until both Vancouver and Montreal get teams in MLS and who knows how long that will take or if it will happen at all.

For what it's worth, as important as getting more tv revenue is to the league, the fact is that this is an attendance driven league. I think that should be given higher priority for the time being.

Also, given peoples concerns about the talent pool, (I include myself here), should the league give greater consideration to cities with established, competitive clubs in place?

[mo-girl]

Positives for St. Louis:
1. Check out the previous link to article on Cooper's investors and SSS plans. (Silent investor).
2. St. Louis sports fans really are some of the best fans anywhere.:)
3. St. Louis-Chicago rivalry has precedent in Cards-Cubs.

Negatives for STL:
1. Stadium plans are for Collinsville, IL -- I'd rather see it in or closer to the city (that's where all the other sports stadiums are there).
2. St. Louis is hotter than Atlanta in the summer.

I like Montreal and Portland for reasons other people have mentioned. I'm not convinced STL should be top 2, but moving KC to STL (if it could happen) would be a good idea.

[Brokenbil]

Ives, based on your article, I believe Montreal and Miami will be offered the expansion slots. I've read elsewhere that MLS is expected to announce the winners in late 2008/early 2009.

Is it true that USL-1 seeks to grow in order to rival MLS? If so, are any rejected MLS bidders likely to end up there?

[edaw33]

Miami can't even get 100 people to a baseball game with half the town being Cubans and Dominicans. Isn't baseball the sport of choice for those countries, yet they cannot pay people to get to a Marlins game????? Plus they are a winning team and still no support!!!!! Why on earth would a soccer team work there?

I am for Montreal and Portland.

[Drew D (From FL)]

Miami does deserve another team. If San Jose does, then miami definately does, especially given the fact that the fusion played 2 hours out of miami in boca raton. Who cares about the marlins? This is a diferrent sport, the marlins' stadium isnt conveniently located, and just because nobody shows up to their games doesnt mean there won't be any soccer support. People from miami would pack the orange bowl every time there was the gold cup here in the states, and they've come back everytime we've hosted, no matter the teams. What it boils down to is that people like chris want all the teams midwestern and nothern, because they want rivalries and all of that but isn't considering the FACT (whether anyone wants to admit it or not) that the southeast region is an untapped market that with the mls expanding it to miami or atlanta will only help expand the brand of mls and their viewers. You guys are all worried about Barca Alienating fans....There is an Arsenal de Sarandi team that plays in the argentine league, supported by arsenal, and also an everton team in chile. Both have thrived and so have the leagues from their inclusion, especially considering both sister teams have done exhibition matches often in south america. And honestly, if barca don't implement a youth system or whatever they do here, it's no sweat off my back. We already have a youth system for our US team in the works, along with other mls teams, so who cares. Seattle was just granted expansion for next year, which is a state away from Oregon. I think that will hold portland off until next expansion. Not saying portland doesn't deserve a team, I just think Miami has more of a priority being a bigger city and having no team in the southeast. MLS would be stupid not to put a franchise in miami, especially when Barca is knocking on the door, which they probably won't be back if they don't get the bid the first time. Portland can wait, and so can St. Louis if they don't take the wizards from KC first. Montreal and Miami will be the expansions of 2011, And St. Louis for KC with San diego taking Chivas hopefully.

[northzax]

so would Montreal also require an exception to the international roster rules? TFC has an extra two spots, right? If they want in so badly, let them play by the same rules that the rest of the league does, both Montreal and TFC lose their bonus spots in 2011, and i am fine with it. what? there isn't enough Canadian talent? well, maybe they shouldn't be in the league then. sorry. and, of course, Canadian talent would have to enter the league through the draft and allocation process like US talent. one team can get an exception, two just begins to sound odd.

[Tom P]

I think Portland and St. Louis are going to to get screwed. With St. Louis it will be a 2nd royal screwing.

I see Montreal deservingly getting one team and Barcelona undeservingly getting the other but how does a league that so rightfully seeks recognition and legitamacy turn down a direct tie in to one of the 4 biggest clubs in the world in Barcelona? If I were Garber I don't think truthfully I could.

I do wish Barcelona would pick a 2nd New York team over Miami because it is not a top 4 choice for the MLS potential markets among the locations availible.