CONCACAF Champions League: A night to forget

Two goals for, nine goals against.

That was the final tally when all was said and done in the two CONCACAF Champions League play-in series involving MLS teams. Two goals scored, nine goals allowed.

OUCH.

You can blame the ugly results on the boatload of injuries to both New England (which loss its series to Trinidad & Tobago club Joe Public by an aggregate score of 6-1) and Chivas USA (which lost its series to Panamanian club Tauro FC 3-1), or you could choose to ignore that and use the results to condemn MLS for its salary cap and roster constraints.

So which one is it? Give your opinion below:

poll by twiigs.com

Share your thoughts on last night's bloodbath in the comments section below.

Comments

[kyle]

I personally don't think the players were giving their all in either game. Are the players paid for these games the same way as in MLS. I just think it might be like the Superliga final where the players were protesting these extra tournaments before they renew their CBA. Matt Reis didn't look like he cared too much when he was dogging all those saves. The Revs have never won an MLS Cup and it was pretty obvious last night they are more worried about winning that then this tournament.

[Mickey]

Nothing new... just teams other than DC United to demonstrate how shallow MLS's talent pool remains.

[Mark]

For comparision, Montreal is through to the group stages after beating a Nicaraguan team.

[kyle]

Yeah DC has been absolutely dominating as of late and they've been racking up the trophys the last few seasons haha... jokes...

[Eugene]

MLS roster limits and salary caps need to change if they want to prevent future embarrassments like these two series.

NE is due for a slide, their form of late has been horrendous. I expect them to start losing league matches now. And the new boy Badilla got smoked. Someone put a discovery on Fitzpatrick Gregory Richardson now -- or better yet, do away with the discovery system and someone sign him in the offseason with the highest offer.

[aaron]

They are horrible because they are not the teams that they were from last year... teams change year to year and a current 'hot' team should be the ones getting to play and not the washed up teams from a year ago. There is too much parity in the league to play tournaments this way and they don't express enough commitment to these tournaments.

[rorvis]

Yikes, it was awful for the Revs. Left the game in the 55th minute, an all time record for leaving early. We fielded a 'B' team, and got a 'B' result. Unfortunately, injuries mean this is our 'A' team for now:
Shalrie "BA" Joseph
Jay "Face" Heaps
Wells "Howlin' Mad" Thompson
Matt "Hannibal" Reis

Got carried away with the A Team there, but bad times a-coming for the Revs...

[Haig]

DC fans are clowns.

[James]

wow
THAT was embarassing. i only caught about 20 minutes of the chivas game, but this can't be good for FSC can it? Ives, are they committed to broadcasting this tournament even if it's 4 central american teams in the semifinals?

[RK]

I think Mickey's post was poorly worded -- he meant that other teams have now proved how this MLS rosters are.

Don't forget that Toronto couldn't even get this far.

[TCompton]

I don't think you can blame one thing on the quick departures of Chivas and the Revolution from the CONCACAF Champions Leagues. Both teams have had to deal with injuries and summer tournaments, but in the end, I think their eliminations are actually caused by 2 different things.

When you look at Chivas, the sale of Brad Guzan, injuries to Jesse Marsh, Ante Razov, Maykal Galindo, Jonathan Bornstein, and the Olympic absence of Sacha Kljestan, has essentially raped this team of its lifeblood.

When looking at New England, their injuries are pretty bad. But one thing they've had going for them over the last several years is pretty solid depth.

Due to their strong finishes in 2007, both teams participated in SuperLiga. Chivas, who qualified for the tournament with strong performances by Guzan, Marsh, Razov, Galindo, Bornstein, and Kljestan, has seen little of their combined efforts on the field this year, and their lack of depth put them at a severe disadvantage going into the tournament.

New England, who advanced to the finals, playing 2 additional games, relied on its traditionally strong to carry them through.

So, while depth may have been the straw that broke the camels back for Chivas, I think New England's elimination has more to do with their priorities. Steve Nicol is also a very smart manager. I think that he probably knew going in that his objective is to win the elusive MLS Cup. He's also in a good position in league standing to claim the Supporters Shield for the first time in club history and add a second trophy to his 2008 campaign. Nicol knows that advancing into the Champions League group phase only becomes a larger obstacle for him while the league's schedule continues to punish successful teams.

[RK]

this=thin

[brett]

while i agree the cap needs to improve, and the minimum needs to also improve so we can keep the quality talents fromt he Draft picks rather then seeing them deny the contract and move abroad or USL, i also blame the congested MLS season...

turn the superliga into the UEFA cup and let the best 4 teams from the previous season who dont make CCL... this will lessen the play load the top teams have to play not to mention allow other teams to get the intl exp they so desperately need...

either way tho, the 4-0 loss was in fact embarresing.... even for NE's B-squad

[doug]

How do you think Don Garber feels about this? How many more embarrassments can MLS afford at the international level? If you wanna stake your claim as a legit league, you have got to drop or dramatically revise the salary cap or 6-1 losses against Joe Public or Jane Private will become all too common

[Taco]

After you get past the first 11 on any MLS team the talent drops off quickly. I wonder how genuine the NE injuries were considering their concerns (understandable) over the number of games they have to play.

[TCompton]

Also, the performances of both Chivas and New England on the away legs leads me to think that maybe the lack of international experience hindered their performance a bit too.

Not many MLS teams have had success in CONCACAF. I think maybe DC United, LA Galaxy, and Houston Dynamo are probably the most experienced on the road in CONCACAF. Hopefully, the Champions League moves on, we'll see more and more teams get some experience.

[doug]

point is well taken TCompton. MLS teams have only been playing legit road internationals since the inception of Superliga if Im not mistaken. Its also naive for MLS to belive that they can compete with the pay structure and cap the way it is

[John]

Management is not interested wasting resources on this tournament this year. The players know it. The quality of the effort reflects it.

[James]

Why do people keep bringing up salary and rosters? I can't say that isn't the problem, but at least provide some stats to compare with Joe Public and Tauro. If I had to make a guess I would say those teams probably have less talent on the roster, certainly much less for salary, but probably less wear and tear in terms of fixtures. And it would be one thing for MLS clubs to get caught off guard in the first game, but for both of them having lost and to not play for some pride in the home leg is just terribly embarassing.

[paul Lorinczi]

Well, I hope this ends the MLS is as good as the EPL crap we have heard over the years.

I have always said that International play will be the measuring stick for how far MLS has come. To lose to regional powers from T&T and Panama, says we have a long way to go.

Both Montreal and Puerto Rico have shown more class than MLS.

MLS needs to raise the salary cap. The product on the field needs to improve. These results are embarrassing.

I am a fan of MLS since day one. We deserve better than this.;

[SeaOtter]

MLS just isn't the quality that most would like to believe.

I honestly don't believe that NE is worse than JP talent-wise, but organizationally MLS does not allow our teams to compete outside the league.

MLS has to increase the roster limits and increase the salary cap as well. I also believe that a larger share of the profits from player sales should find its way into player acquisition.

Many of these limitations have lived beyond their shelf life. MLS taking a proactive approach to these and other items can only be beneficial to everyone involved. It should also help with attendance by continuing to drive quatlity of play and help the leagues position with the CBA beyond 2009.

[jgildea]

The cap a rosters is an issue because of the numbers of games that the teams are asked to play without MLS taking it into consideration.
Superliga, MLS, USOC, CCL, CCC all in one season and you still have to be ready for the playoffs at the end!?!
Teams should be allowed to build rosters that can do it all or they should not be asked to try.

[BFBS]

Another option: Joe Public is a good side that can beat anybody in the CONCACAF on its day. Gabriel Badilla was the man burned on both of Joe Public's first two goals (which goals effectively killed the tie as Revs would have needed four unanswered goals to advance). This is a man who comes with quite a pedigree (Saprissa/Costa Rica NT starter) at, allegedly, quite a price. Maybe he hasn't settled in yet, maybe the mistakes to put him in the position to be burned were made by someone else, or maybe the Trinis are just plain good.

[Erick]

Major Leagu Soccer is a joke I used to support it but now I'm done with this. What can you expect from mediocre college kids that don't have the skill and passion to compete at a disent level, but thats not there fault its the stupid MLS restrictions and bosses!

With respects,
One Less Fan

[RK]

Disent?

Couldn't even correct your errors from Goff's blog?

[onionsack]

It is painfully obvious why MLS never does well in any international competition (Superliga doesnt count) for years.

1. MLS roster rules leave our clubs woefully undermaned to compete in competitions competitivly, during a dense scheule.

2. MLS salary rules keep team quality very low. Teams cant bulk rosters with talented players, instead they rely on 4-6 decent players with a bunch of scrubs.

3. Dev rosters and salary for those positions keep teams from signing youth system players that could add serious deepth...instead teams must rely on fringe pros from the NCAA to try and solve the deficet of #1 and #2 above.

Until MLS starts to allow teams the autonomy to sign their players and pay them their worth, and lossen the restrictions in place currently...we will always be a joke in games outside MLS.

[Bootsy]

The poll sucks, because multiple answers apply. Yes, the teams may have done much better if they weren't saddled with lots of injuries, and yes, fatigue caused by schedule congestion (at least for NE) is relevant; but nonetheless, it's also true that MLS isn't as good as we like to think, and it's also true that last night was truly embarassing and the league needs to change.

[Asif]

A couple of things we learned from last night.

1. If we're gonna have teams try to play in in 4 competitions (MLS, US Open Cup, Superliga, & Champions League) and also the loss of players to national teams, then the league should make the following changes:

A. Increase the team salary cap by at least 25%.

B. Allow the roster size to grow from 28 to 38. The first team can consist of 22 players. The reserve team can consist of 16. Thereby having having full teams for both competitions and to allow coaches more options in case of injuries.

C. Allow teams to make any transfers they want (whether they be over market value or not) as long as they stay within allocation rules and salary cap constraints.

D. Give all teams the opportunity for 2 Designated players. Only allow a team to trade away one of the two. The team can either use the first one or hold onto it until a player of suitable talent is available.

[JeffM]

The MLS front office always say that they want success in international play. If they mean that, then they'll have to agree to a substantial increase in the salary cap when the CBA expires at the end of next year. It can't only be the players asking for this - MLS needs to do it for their own self-interest. This league isn't going to grow in stature as long as MLS teams are fielding 22-year-old kids making $30,000 in international play.

[lower]

I'm done with MLS.This is stupid league f**ing players and owners.Protest at Superliga and CCL play says it all.Bunch of amateours players f**k NE and MLS.Go to college idiots.

[Angel]

Wow embarressing, how can we loose to those team, that is why I keep saying in order to compete with team like down in Mexico we have to have a strong roster and in order to do that mls have to incress the salary cap or else this is going to happen even with the mediocra team some where in the Island, Wow and this is New england who just can from behind and tied agaisnt Galaxy and loose to a team that really don't even train most of the time...Don Garber you have to do something about this especially if u looking to compete at higher lever, like the competion of Sur Americana or Libertadores not even to mention League of Clubs... Please Don Garber don't get us embarress again.. Or else really what happen in the 80's with that league is going to happen again if you don't do something about it.

[erick]

Major Leagu Soccer is a joke I used to support it but now I'm done with this. What can you expect from mediocre college kids that don't have the skill and passion to compete at a DECENT level, but thats not there fault its the stupid MLS restrictions and bosses!

With respects,
One Less Fan

[TwistedTidings]

MLS has had about the same salary cap and never lost so badly (or at all, if I recall correctly) to Carribean competition.

We cannot blame this embarassment on the salary cap. We can only blame it on the fact that New England doesn't care about tournaments and was frankly naive. Chivas USA, too, is internationally naive.

Obviously, increasing the roster size and salary cap are both excellent ideas, but an embarassment like this should NEVER happen even with our current roster sizes and cap. It has NEVER happend with a Carribean team before, not even to MLS teams much weaker than this year's New England.

[Ernie]

Ives,

I love the new integrated poll feature to the site. Just stating it for the record. As for the Concacaf Champs. league, how freaking embarrassing.

[John]

Given all the cirumstances (tired team, tons of injuries, etc.) the Revs decided that their team didn't need to add another six games to their schdeule this Fall.

The team they put out there tried for a while, but once they went down a goal and especially two goals they were done. They tried to play with Khano Smith and an 18-year-old as the forwards and three defenders that had never played together before. Not good.

Is it understandable...yes. Is it embarassing...yes. The positive is that they can focus on MLS.

Prior to the game, I thought they would win the tie...I was very excited by the prospect of having them play in the group stage. I don't think I clearly understood the reality of their situation. Nicol's comments after the game are pretty clear. His team is spent.

It would be nice if MLS could add 2-3 more senior positions to the roster (think real senior players...not development players), but I'm not sure this would have helped them this much in this game. Too many games and too many injuries.

[erick]

Major Leagu Soccer is a joke I used to support it but now I'm done with this. What can you expect from mediocre college kids that don't have the skill and passion to compete at a disent level, but thats not there fault its the stupid MLS restrictions and bosses!

With respects,
One Less Fan

[Christian]

Not really surprised by the results and it kind of proves some of my doubts about the quality of MLS.

The salary cap/fatigue/roster depth is a valid excuse but an excuse nontheless. I don't believe the Joe Public players make as much as the lowest paid senior roster player on the Revs roster.

It comes down to love for the shirt and no matter what the limitations are, you go out there and play your heart out.

MLS/American fans are always clamoring for respect they think they've already earned and reading about the way some referred to Joe Public and Tauro is hilarious now, especially after the 4-0 pasting the Revs received at home.

I told you guys the Revs winning SuperLiga meant nothing on the international scope and it certainly didn't prove anything about the league's quality. All it proved was that, just like the national team, MLS teams win at home but struggle on the road.

btw, some Revs players were acting like thugs last night, especially Heaps, but when the situation was reversed against Atlante, MLS fans were outraged. I still haven't seen these same "fair-play" fans step up to and condemn the guilty party.

Hypocrisy at its best.

[3VIL L33T]

F*** that noise,

Yes a lot of this crap is Garbers fault.
why clear the schedule for a BS tournament like superliga but do nothing for CCL???

but the rest falls on the team.
after the month off in SL, NE had a full schedule of SL and MLS games. They won the SL title (against my Dynamo). If they wanted to i'm sure they could have gone past at the very least the first two legs of CCL.

They phoned it in like everyone else does for the US Open Cup (in which NE made it to the semi finals).
NE goal is an MLS Cup plain and simple. Which is fine, they never won it... I get it.
So all that means is we need to root for DC, Dynamo, and yes Montreal.

GO MLS and USL!!!!
Lets show the world how great our league and talent really is!!!

[B.A.]

Forgive the crosspost, please:

I may have a proposal that will help increase the depth of MLS clubs without significantly raising the salary cap or the number of international slots per club. My proposal would definitely benefit both MLS I/Os, the league itself, and the players' union.

My proposal is not as radical as 35 yard penalty shootouts either.

My question is: To whom do I send said proposal?

[James]

Ok, people can't seem to stop bringing up salaries and rosters without considering that the teams that beat the MLS Clubs were not big spenders with unlimited resources...
From what I can tell, information is not entirely clear, Trindad and Tobago clubs play 27 fixtures in a season running from July to November, so their clubs are in midseason form like MLS. Joe Public is 5th in the table (of 10)right now, this is not some uber-dominant side. JPFC have played 21 league matches to date it appears from the schedule on their website, their domestic cup doesn't start until 9/16, they also had matches on the 23rd and the 30th leading up to and in between the New England matches. Anyway just wanted to give some actual info

[Alex]

I thought Chivas deserved to win it should have been 3-0 at half time. The revs on the other hand "horrible" they didn't care, they don't play with any passion and are boring to watch. These two teams have limited international experience and it clearly showed last night. the only problem I have is the roster size they need to increase the roster size if they want better results. These other teams care about international tournaments just like DC cares about it, this is the major difference. You can blame the league all you want but who in their right mind would pay more money for the players new england put out last night? Not me. If you want a bigger paycheck you've got to earn it and they sure didn't.

[Mario in SJ]

Ives,

Please look into what happened last night.
These 2 games were thrown by the players. As a journalist you have the oblogation to do some investigative reporting on the rather odd play and inform us fans.

What is their share for winning this CCL? Is it even less than the Super Liga? The players sent a clear message last night. What will be the response?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

let this be the impetus for change

[CH]

I guess the trinis will have to win by 10 goals next time to get respect. With that said DC and Houston are really the only teams that stand a chance because they have the most poise. Everyone knows by their performance in the Superliga that chivas is a young team and just doesnt have the poise to win anything yet. History shows us that even though New England are on the rise they wont win more than one trophy per season. I know people are going to say that its Krafts fault or they werent interested but Joe Public beat NE's butt up and down the feild last night. If you dont care about the CONCACAF champions League more than the EXHIBITION superliga you have priority problems. I think you could blame that on the golden coach Steve Nicol, because ever since they won the Superliga its like they dont care about anything else, not even the MLS so dont sy their hearts werent in it cause their hearts havent been in anything since the superliga.
History shows us that DC and Houston stand a better chance in international tornuments , they always atleast put in a good showing. So dont be suprized if we advance out of the Group of Death and make it to the semis, im not sure if we can win it but i know that United will represent the league better than chivas or the revolution did.

[Mario in SJ]

OK obligation is still spelled with an "i"

[Mario in SJ]

CH said:
"..ever since they won the Superliga its like they dont care about anything else, not even the MLS so dont sy their hearts werent in it cause their hearts havent been in anything since the superliga."

I could not agree with you more. Apparently the players were burned on the amount of money they got from winning the SL and this is the payback.

[CD]

All I can say is thank god, Garber stepped in and didn't let the Red Bulls buy some crappy striker from the inferior USL. That would be bad business. :)

Clearly the MLS is superior to all western hemisphere teams and buying from them would just bring the league down...

[Angel]

Lower & Eric I'm with you, I'm tried of this league more actually of their stupid politics, Don Garber is a Joke I hope the players go on a Strike to show him what the think about the format of this league, Stupid Salary Cap and the stupid schedule.. Please if the some type of election of for the presidency of the MLS as commisioner. We someone who love this game of Football soccer, someone you have the passion, bleed for the game. IVES HOW CAN WE RAISE OUR VOICE SO WE CAN GET RID OFF OF THIS CLOWN OF DON GARBER...

[Reid]

erick - i didn't get what you were saying, could you try it one more time

[John Leonard]

What Joe Public did more than anything else is expose the lack of athleticism of the MLS. Outside of the star attractions, MLS teams get a collection of good but not great athletes who quickly become overmatched against superior talent. It was particularly painfully clear in the RBNY exhibition against Barca but just as evident here. Compared to many other teams from leagues around the world MLS players simply can't compete with the speed, strength on ball and ball movement of the international game on a regular basis. Just like the USMNT struggles on occasion MLS teams have trouble maintaining possession and building chances for themselves while having trouble maintaining marking and organization in the back. Also, the lack of technical sophistication, consistent passing and imagination leaves teams without good counterpunches once a defensive stop or save is made even if they can get their forwards out quickly.

I'm not sure who's smoking what to think that MLS is anywhere near EPL or ever has been. On an off-night a lower level side like Fulham might give up a result to an on-form MLS team and obviously our MLS All-Star assemblages can produce a pretty high quality of play. However, obviously that's not the standard MLS needs to worry about right now or even for years yet to come. CONCACAF is proving challenging enough, especially as the talent level rises throughout the region. With the quality Joe Public showed they would probably give many a European side outside the Big 4 leagues quite a lot of trouble, as would Tauro FC. Make no mistake, these are good, competitive sides. It's now the task of MLS to expand its rosters, expand its salary cap, and further invest in its clubs' youth development programs to catch up.

[Mickey]

First - RK covered my original point. Historically, DC United is the usual suspect among MLS sides that find themselves with an injured or exhausted team forced to play a crowded schedule - my point is that NE's and Chiva's performances reflect the same story DCU faced in past CONCACAF champions cups.

Second - James raised the question at least once. The paltry salary cap and the rigid player designations (developmental, senior international, key grip, waterboy, etc.) keeps MLS teams from building much depth. Throw into that a ridiculously crowded fixture schedule (i.e., physios will tell you that players typically need 72-hours to recover from a game and that doesn't include training/practice sessions)... and injuries are going to hammer your ability to step-up (Hats off to Houston (this is coming from a DCU fan) but let's be clear that they had the fgood furtune of a healthy roster during last year's tournaments).

It's not an excuse - just reasons contributing to what is now appearing to be a trend among MLS teams playing outside the regular schedule. Red Bull fans could afford to appreciate this given that there is a good chance that the Red Bulls will be playing outside the regular season schedule next year.

[MLS Fan]

One Less Fan has now posted the same comment 3 times--please we get it already.

On to last night-- I can respect Chivas, they tried to come out and play. When they were down one man they figured that losing by 1 would be the same as losing by 5 so they decided to get aggressive and go for it. It was a gamble and they lost, but at least they tried to win.

The NE games was something different--very little effort displayed on the field in both legs. It was a shameful display. Thompson and Joseph where the only players out there last night who seemed to care. A fan who was at the Revs game last night said that he saw Mariner and Albright joking around and laughing on the sideline. It is clear that this tournament was not a priority for Stevie Nichol just like the US Open Cup was not a priority either. It is sad, but it is the truth.

On the other hand, even if it is distasteful, it makes sense. If they had gone on, then the group stage would take place exactly when the final push of the regular season would take place and when the playoffs would begin. No one would want to be distracted at this important time. Assuming that they made it out of the group stage, they would then play again in the winter-- the MLS offseason--how many coaches and players would like to do that? And then the final stages would take place in the preseason/early season.

Until MLS gives teams larger rosters, higher salaries, bonus incentives, and allow them to actually sign players they want (the Kandji situation with NY was ridiculous) there will always be practical calculating coaches like Nichol who do the cost benefit analysis in their heads and conclude that it's just not worth it to take on all these out of league tournaments. Nichol deliberately tanked the CCL tournament and decided to concentrate solely on MLS league play.

[KingSnake]

I second John Leonard.

[KingSnake]

p.s. - I wonder if the match bonuses have increased since the (then) Metro got $42 each for a Merconorte match ...

[CD]

Well New England you "Live and Learn"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8OxBZHn_4g

[kpugs]

I don't think the majority of us on this site overrate MLS. And John Leonard obviously doesn't watch European football or the Premiership. Stoke City would be struggling (at best) to make the MLS playoffs over here. And I don't care how much of a hater anyone wants to be...the league's record against European competition is borderline EXCELLENT, including the all star games. And the haters will say they're not trying, it's pre-season for them, etc. Oh yeah? Well if MLS is so bad (or Europe is so great) shouldn't they beat MLS regardless of your ridiculous reasons? I thought so.

MLS is a pretty good league--not great--but definitely not awful. AND IT'S BARELY 13 YEARS OLD!!!!! Of course it's nowhere near the Premiership. But there are MLS teams better than some Premiership clubs (sure, the WORST Premiership clubs, but that's nothing to be ashamed of), and if you don't believe that you definitely don't watch both leagues, nor do you realize a lot of the European leagues are a century old or more.

Bottom line is MLS clubs should not be losing to teams like this, but they do fairly consistently. And multiple competitions are no excuse, as we know the better clubs in Europe often compete in the league, one or more domestic cups, and if they're good--Europe.

[CD]

Hey New England Revolution in the words of Joe Public:

"Ah, yeah
Y’all, check it
Kick this one for the Public
Now break it down

There’s so much wrong and negativity
Enough for the whole world to see
I know there’s still a possibility..."

[KingSnake]

MLS's record is good against Euro teams because ... 1) They stack the MLS all-star team with the best players from each team, and 2) the Euro teams don't give a crap, and are are sweating out the beer.

[Tim]

You can expect to see F.G. Richardson in the MLS next season. No way he stays at a club like Joe Public. Rest assured he got some scout's attention.

On to my thoughts about these losses. I watched the NE game on FSC. They looked HORRIBLE. Even with the injuries, their discipline and marking in the defense was inexcusable. The only goal I would really consider Reiss' fault was the 2nd, a near-poster from the flatest of angles that he should have saved. NE also squandered the looks they got on goal; or, when they got behind Joe Public's defense, nobody ran forward, so crosses haplessly went across the middle. They definitely looked as though they didn't care. Factor in no Twellman, Ralston, or Albright, and it was a recipe for a spanking.

I didn't watch the Chivas USA/Tauro match, so can't really comment.

[Chris]

My vote is:

E. Last night was awesome seeing NE get annihilated by Joe Public made my night.

[Maple Leaf Red]

The worst part of last night?

Montreal Impact - a USL team - made it through. That depresses me more than two other MLS teams getting wiped.

[Bootsy]

Kyle and Haig both need to work on their reading comprehension skills.

[Reb Bull Anti-Fan]

Red Bull fans are cows. Red Cows!!!!

[Christian]

Kpugs,

I can't seriously believe you're trying to make your point by using the MLS All-stars record against average EPL teams. That is pathetic.

Those games mean literally nothing and they're geared to give fans like you a false sense of reality as to where the league really stands.

New England not only lost, they were SCHOOLED by what most consider to be an "inferior" team. Inferior by whose standards? Irrational MLS fans who overrate their league.

hear that Kpugs? That's the sound of fans like you waking up from their superiority dream.

[green]

"MLS/American fans are always clamoring for respect they think they've already earned and reading about the way some referred to Joe Public and Tauro is hilarious now, especially after the 4-0 pasting the Revs received at home."

Best. Comment. Today.

I've read much here in the past about what "my team" didn't do to get a win in an out of league match. What happened to giving some respect to the better team? It's sad that fans these days find whatever they can to discredit the opposing side when their team can't get a result. What happened to saying good game with a tip of the hat to the opposition?

I'll say it again. . . it's called making excuses. Get off of your high horses. It takes something more to give credit where credit is due. Even Ives sounded like an excuse machine when his side was knocked out against Crystal Palace USA in the OC. Are you still standing behind your excuses now that we see, through results, that MLS just isn't that good? Or is it because of all the great reasons you've come up with to get to sleep at night?

[Adam M.]

These results are deeply embarassing and a mark against the way the MLS is run. My bottom line with MLS is that, all else being equal, huge numbers stars and other solid international talent would rather earn their living in NY or LA or Chicago or other great American cities than in many places in Europe or elsewhere. Tradition is important, but as Man City is proving, talent--all of it--is ultimately for sale. Heck, Rivaldo went to Uzbeckistan because of the money, and he's still more talented than almost anyone in MLS. Get rid of the silly caps and other financial restrictions. Otherwise the current owners will be long gone or dead before MLS ever turns into a truely talent-based league. It may be a nice night out right now, but its hardly quality football.

[noname]

Granted the MLS teams were depleted and gassed; but give some credit to Joe Public. They played some surprsingly good soccer choosing not to sit back and defend while on the road with a goal advantage; and gave us some really entertaining soccer. Robinson made some spectacular plays as did a few of his teammates. The team was well organized on the field. The back line never lost its shape and the spacing in the midfield allowed for good movement of the ball. I would like to know more about the coach. Where did he come from?

Tauros wasn't as exciting. They played conseratively until they went down a goal and then only really opened up the game once Chivas was a man down. I don't see them doing all that well in group play...but Joe Public..you gotta like their style!

[Bootsy]

noname -- well said. Joe Public played very well. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that Harbour View has taken care of them for the most part in recent years, given Joe Public looked much, much better than the Harbour View team DC walloped at home back in the spring.

[JC]

I don't get the roster and salary cap comments because you're implying that Joe Public and Tauro FC has a bigger budget than the MLS teams, which I highly doubt. I think it comes to down to MLS fans overrating the league. At the end of the day any excuses trying to explain away the losses will be just that, excuses. The better teams won. The funny thing is you won't hear a peep from MLS and US blowhards like Greg Lalas or Frank Dell'Appa who argue till their blue in the face that the MLS is on equal footing with the Mexican league. It's not and won't be for a while.

[Scott C]

The answer is E - all of the above. Both these teams are particularly decimated by injuries, but MLS needs to add more senior players and the cap space to pay them if they want to compete in these tournaments. The schedule congestion is also a factor; I don't question the work ethic of the New England players, I just think they are burnt out by all these extra games, and they have the injuries to go along with it. They need more senior players to share the burden. Joe Public might have played 3 games last week, but New England has been playing extra games for months. I don't think you should read too much into the score line; Joe Public had 11 men behind the ball, and pretty much scored all there goals on the counterattack. Their forwards looked good, but it's a lot easier to look good with the kind of time and space they had on the ball...

[Mario in SJ]

I dont understand the MLS vs EPL arguments relative to last night's games. Did you guys see the NE game. Talk about a bumbling inaccurate Keystone Cops routine. NO MLS team is that bad, not even in Spring Training. These guys gave away ball aftet ball. When someone got deep down the sides there was no one in the center. The first goal JP scored the NE defender was in front of the JP striker. He seemed to have slowed down to let the striker get around him and even when he finally lunged for the ball, his leg never fully extended, allowing the striker to get a clean shot on goal.

There is no way anyone who saw the game can come to the conclusion that NE was trying to win this game.

[Matt M.]

Guys, please.

Will you quite with the "Just spend more money" crap?

"Duhhhh, just spend more money. That will make the team better!"

The reason why they don't just triple or quadruple the salary cap is that whatever additional funds they get from having a better product will not be made good by additional revenue.

The average MLS team gets about $7.5 million in ticket/concenssion recenue and next to nothing in TV revenue (per wikidpedia, its about $4 Mill per year for the the LEAGUE, not the individual teams).

That is about $250K per team for TV rights. Wow.

If we were to say, quadruple the salary cap from $2.5 Mill to $10 Mill. That's another $7.5 Million needed in revenue.

Remember that that is the amount teams receive in total ticket/concession sales.

Going from $2.5 Million quality roster to $10 Mill quality roster is like going from a lower tier Norwegian division 1 team to a mid-table Norwegian division 1 team.

Is there anyone reading this that truly believe that ticket/concessions would double in MLS if they go from Lower Norwegian league quality to mid-Norwegian league quality?

Can anyone reading this name anyone in the Norwegian league?

I suspect that $7.5 Mill each MLS team would spend would net the team perhaps another $1 Mill in revenue due to the improved play and, of course, the utterly HUGE star power associated with those playing fielded on Mid-Norwegian league rosters.

I also suspect the "Duhhhh, just spend more money" crowd on this string tend to be those foreigners that can't comprehend the idea that soccer isn't accepted by the masses anywhere. That the statements that MLS has a limited following are lies as no one could possibly look at a soccer game for ten seconds and not realize that this is what is missing in their lives.

Overspending by MLS is the biggest threat to the sports professional existance in the US.

The second is lack of parity. Where English, Italian and other Euros may be so incredibly attuned to the game that they don't care that the same teams are going to win every year, the US market is different.

Trying to explain to someone why they should take up a sport in which everyone already knows the final standings before the season even begins is problematic at best.

[Seriously?]

While I agree that increasing the cap would help with depth and quality, as far as the Revs are concerned, how many teams around the world would easily deal with the loss of their top FOUR forwards, and the first alternate so to speak, in Steve Ralston? They showed in the early part of the season that had 4 legit MLS level forwards, and that Ralston could play there in a pinch as well, yet all 5 of them were out injured. Never mind not having your best defender, along with the starting right back and right mid. It was a bit embarrassing, but I put it more down to a larger than usual injury list, compounded by fatigue from the fixture congestion.

As for the people who are done with MLS, good riddance. Please, tell us how the quality in the top divisions in England, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc, is better than MLS, it's fascinating, we had no idea. If you were a true fan of the sport, you'd support it in this country, not go around telling people you'll only watch the top teams in the world. Nobody in England is impressed when a person with no ties to Manchester claims to be a Manchester United fan, but here it seems that people expect someone to be impressed if they say they're a fan of Man U or whomever.

[lower]

so, Matt M you are saying that MLS will fold in few years, rihgt? They need to ofer much better product on the field.If not they will fold.

[Rando]

MLS=Pathetic
Until we free ourselves form the tight MLS leash. Results like this will be the norm we simply cant compete at the int'l. level its that simple. DC and maybe one other can. but thats it. This is a huge emberassment for anyone involved in MLS. For us not get all four teams in is a disgrace. And for those of u who point out the Supeliga that there is a mickey mouse tourney. When we play the Mex. teams they're in preseason while we are at half way through ours. The Superliga needs to go and teams need to focus on this tournament more. How dumb can some teams be to just dismiss this tourney.
CONCACAF Champions League Champ= FIFA CLUB WC=$$$$$$$

[John]

I think people are being a bit harsh. Of course the Revs care...they don't want to be embarassed (and they were). I don't think Superliga jading them had anything to do with it other than to pile on a lot of games.

I give Joe Public full credit, but the Revs with too many injuries and too many games were not prepared to play these games at a high level.

[Metro-211-7]

MLS might not be as good as many think but, for my money, MLS has very decent teams.

Chivas should show greater effort in both of their games against Tauros. It was embarrassing to be dominated by a team that will not make 700 world club ranking list (if such thing exists).

When it comes to the Revolution, what they did (didn't do) was embarrassing to MLS and to the whole Noth America! If they only show up to do this much, they should vacate their spot for another more motivated team to go.

In the SuperLiga, the $1M, or whatever money that was, motivated them. Here, I think they didn't have that type of motivation.

N.E. Revolution, most of the North America will be happy if you lose another final of the MLS Cup. Hell with you all! Stop embarrassing the rest of the league!

[Angel]

JC
is not about excuses about the salsary cap or roster is the way this league been run, We don't a commish.(Bob Garber) that know football soccer. He can from running something in the NFL so this league is run like the NFL. We need someone with more knowledge of Football soccer. Someone that can set up a salary cap with out spending a fortune or a roster that can hold playing in several competition. N.E. and Chivas are pretty tired after playing Superliga and in the MLS, Other Team like D.C. United and Dynamo they all play for the Sur Americana 1st leg. plus Superliga and the MLS that is very tireing for the players and plus the only getting pay peanuts.. Come on people if we a commish that can know what to do with this league we can get better player on the field. Have a very exciting league. Plus Salary Cap can only bring more player with some better quality of football and keep our own American player staying a little bit longer in this league before the try to go aboard.

[Metro-211-7]

The Chivas players might have an excuse not to put ENOUGH eggs into the CCL because they are fighting for a place in the MLS playoffs.

As for the New England, they could use a sub/reserve team in the next MLS game because they have nearly all points that need to make the MLS playoffs.

A disgrace their performance was!

[Angel]

Matt
I love your Post, is very well written and I enjoy your math. But we not saying to extand the salary cap to 10mil. but at least double it from 2.5 to maybe 6 mil. that way we can bring more players which can help bring a better and exciting football soccer on the field. Yeah there is a lot foreign that would like all this and believe me those stadium will get full. Come one right now every where that Beckhams goes to play he fill those Stadium imagine if there were more player like him. plus we came bring more people that are doing well in this league like the names of Baros Schelloto, Emilio, Huckberry, Cuactemo Blanco, Christian Gomes and many more that not getting pay like the like of Beckham but are given their best on the Field. That is why I cry outloud for this league to stop putting more Ostical with this stupid salary Cup, I hope the raise it and raised the number for the roster to 28 player at least. But Matt You are right but I hope that u see our side too. I love Soccer and I Bleed this game and all I want is to go to see my team and to watch them play a beautiful game against a rival that have a strong team and give us a good epetacular game..

[newman]

ives,

what do you think about expanding the salary cap only for the teams that qualify for the international tournaments? that would have the added effect of making the regular season and mls cup more appealing, since teams would have extra incentive to finish top of the league. it would also allow those teams to sign an extra 5 players or so, bolstering their depth for their much longer season.

i really would like to hear your thoughts on such an idea.

[JustinR]

Lets face it, the MLS is not the league people think it is. You just can't build a legit 18 man roster with 2 million dollars. For 2 million we have built some very good teams, but we cannot take this league to the next level without a significant salary cap increase. Until that happens we are a tier 3 league, and will continue to be unless we start spending the money.

[AGUNTE UNITED]

DC United will win a trophy tonight.

VAMOS UNITED!

[Tim]

Matt M,

Very good post. What many don't understand is that throwing money at the MLS will not solve the talent issue. The franchises will end up over-extending themselves, and ultimately go the way of the NASL.

You also make a good point about the EPL comparisons. The same 4 or so teams are the only ones with a legitimate shot each year. The American soccer market would not be very receptive to a league that had 3 or 4 teams that could pony up huge salaries and buy championships every year. I know some will immediately say "Well what about baseball and the Yankees, or the Cardinals." My response would be that baseball rests on much more solid footing in the U.S. than does soccer.

We simply need to accept that many of these MLS teams in this CONCACAF Champions league are late in the season, playing a clogged schedule, and are dealing with many injuries. There were guys last night for NE that were getting their first start ever in the MLS. However, I will certainly acknowledge that I thought their play was poor, and lacked effort. They just didn't seem to really care.

[Matt M.]

Angel,

I do see your point but, like any business, soccer is driven by economics.

In England, Brazil, Italy, etc, there is a huge following for the game that guarantees both a television and stadium audience. Purchasing, say the 500th best player in the world (Say, Juan Pablo Angel) may be seen as a coup as the fans might actually have heard of that player and be more likely to purchase a ticket. Most casual American fans would not have heard of the 500th best player in the world and ticket prices won't really go up.

There are touraments like the UEFA and Champions league that reward successful clubs with high revenues making it more likely and economically justifiable to purchase top players. There is as of yet no equivilent in North America.

Television revenues are next to nothing in the US/Canada market. In europe, they are huge. The Premier League receives $60 Million per team.

In the end, MLS seems confused on what market to go for as they don't seem to know their customer.

1. Ethnics fans of Chivas and Club America and Inter Milan are not likely care about MLS no matter how many Mexicans or Irish or Italians they bring in. They'll watch their homeland's teams and that's fine.

2. American soccer snobs will always demand Manchester United, Arsenal, Real Madrid, and Juventus because that is the "top level" they demand. That's fine too but I get sick of these people deriding MLS.

3. That leaves the relatively small portion of the population that doesn't watch foreign soccer but still king of likes the game. This is the market MLS should be going after.

Its a paradox. For people to watch, they need the product to be top level. For the product to be top level, the market must already exist to pay for it.

I think on the whole that MLS is trying to strike that balance. But it won't be quick.

As for buying more stars, I dont' think that is a good idea.

David Beckman might be the only top star in the world whom would generate enough excitement and money to pay his salary. Henry, ronaldinho, etc would raise some but not enough to pay for themselves.

I also don't believe in targeting players to suit local ethnic populations. The Italians really didn't come out in New York to see Donadoni, the Mexicans really didn't come out in LA to see Luis Hernandez or Claudio Suarez. Even Blanco's impact in Chicago has been overstated. Yes, they had a 15% increase in attendance but the whole league had 10% as part of the "Beckham effect".

That remaining 5% increase in attendance isn't enough to pay his $2.5 Mill in salary nor did it affect the TV revenue.

[Matt M.]

Tim,

I agree with everything you said.

On the salary cap, I believe it should be increased by perhaps $500K to $1 Mill per year to account for rising revenue from advertising and new stadiums. Not a doubling or tripling over night.

And the first portion of that increase should be dedicated to the shameful $17K "Interships" that these rookies get. Some of the rest should go to making the contracts that teams give out to be solid. No more of this "Player XXXXXX" has been released. Contracts should be solid. If the player doesn't perform, then the coach who scouted him should be held accountable for a poor selection.

Getting back to the point of the post, I was shocked to see NE get ripped apart the way they did. Yes, the offense was non-existant but I couldn't believe how badly the defence played.

I say it was the logical combinatin of New England's brutal schedule, major losses to injury, and Joe Public being a good team that had a couple of good games. Give them a hand for executing their gameplan.

I saw several people in this string mention that the Richardson kid belonged in MLS. I don't know how old he is but I suspect he won't be in T&T next season. I thought he was good last week but was exceptional this game. Also, Tierney and Badilla were pathetic in holding him.

[John]

Most commentors lack the insight to say meaninful things about soccer let alone diagnose the lack of success on the field by the MLS team in the past few days. The simple answer is that team management are NOT (!!!!@) interested in winning these games because they have other agendas at this time.

They will do better once it becomes evident that there is money in this thing for them. Ditto for the players.

So, relax, the bad performance has nothiung to do with the quality of play. It is JUST soccer politics as usual.

[Johnny]

Honestly we also need to discuss USL. How is it a second division whose salaries must be half than MLS actually is having success in this event?

USL teams have the same fixture congestion. In fact Puerto Rico played Wednesday in Costa Rica, Friday in Charleson, Sunday at home and now play Aljeuense again tonight.

Montreal had a similar schedule.

These teams have lower paid players yet seem to be doing alright.

I simply think MLS itself has become arrogant and is doing nothing but tooting its own horn to sell new investors and expand further claiming they have some great product so that AEG, Kraft and the Hunts can recoop their losses from sticking with the league thru tough times. politics indeed.

[torosrojosfan]

Total embarrasment for the league .. it really hurts. How can we expect to beat Mexican league teams when we can not beat these minnows while in mid-season form? I am rooting for DC (gasp .. I'm a Red Bulls fan) and for Houston to do better. The credibility of the league goes down the toilet with these results. I guess Copa Libertadores participation is only a pipe dream at this time.

[Kartik]

Johnny that's an interesting point about paying back investors. Never really thought of that but it sounds like it makes at least some sense.

USL certainly has equal if not worse fixture congestion than MLS at times, but have the advantage of being able to sign new players if someone gets hurt, and not have to worry about a salary cap.

[jloome]

.

Actually, lots of USL players choose to play there instead of MLS because the base salary is something like $34,000 a year, well above MLS. They can't afford to pay stars but a team full over average players that sticks together for three years will always beat a team of nine average players and two stars who don't gel due to constant roster shifting.

USL IS the real grassroots league in North America. If the game has to grow slowly, from the grassroots, I expect USL to be around a lot longer than MLS.

[GeneralMSU3]

Johnny hit the nail on the head. It's all about the money. It's all about the owners recouping their losses.

Listen, these guys want to make money...period. Do you really think Bob Kraft, the Hunts, and/or AEG care if their income supplementing MLS project wins any CONCACAF tourney?? Hell no! They probably don't even know and/or discuss CONCACAF.

Does MLS and its owners care about SuperLiga? Yes, because they whore in the Mexican clubs to bring in some extra cash. Unfortunately for us fans, these owners and the League don't care too much about the CONCACAF tournies.

Because of this, Steve Nicol will not be judged on his success in these events. He would much rather get blown out, at home, to a T&T side and not have to play another round in this competition. (Especially after he watched the Crew slide by his team in the standings.) Can you really blame these players and coaches?

It's about money guys. These owners don't want to pay out salaries. They want to buy in to the League and not have to spend anything thereafter.

Us fans do the speaking. We control what happens. The problem is that we are also a loyal bunch that will continue to support the League and our teams within it no matter what. If we stopped going to matches and demanded a better product, you watch how quickly things would start to improve.

[ECS]

besides the embarrassment, the stadiums were empty both here and there. It was just hard to watch. Silent stadiums, poor pitches, poor soccer. Bah. I could not watch through these games.

I am quite DISAPPOINTED nobody has mentioned the pre season PAN PACIFIC CHAMPIONSHIP tourney as well in regards to schedule congestion.

Also I thought that the CCC was done after this year.

So now you have MLS Cup, USOC, Superliga, and CCL.

That should be enough.

Maybe we can get rid of some congestion by going single table and get rid of playoffs?

*stirs pot in hopes of getting the comments count to 1000*

[Chris]

I am sick of listening to the FIXTURE CONGESTION whining everywhere!

New England League 22, Super Cup 5, USOC 3, Champions Lge 2 = 32 games
Chivas League 22, Super Cup 3, USOC 1, Champions Lge 2 = 28 games
Puerto Rico League 26, CFU playoff 2, Champions Lge 2 = 30 games
Montreal League 24, Canadian Champ 4, Champions Lge 2 = 30 games

Give me a break the Rev's have played 2 more games than both USL teams and Chivas has played 2 less!

It is really time to find another excuse!

[Cashcleaner]

This is exactly the sort of kick-in-the-pants Garber and his cohorts at MLS need to make some serious changes to North Americas 'Premier" soccer league.

The suits have been making too much money on the backs of the players and clubs for far too long.