Noon-time Musings

Good afternoon folks. Apologies for the lack of posts today but I was tending to other aspects of the site, as well as finishing off an ESPN.com piece on Amado Guevara that should run later today.

There was big response to yesterday’s post on the Fire-Red Bulls situation and I felt like I needed to make one thing clear. Yesterday’s post had ZERO to do with the current situations with Wilman Conde and Lider Marmol. I have no problem with anything the Fire is doing on either front there. Conde is their player and it is their right not to trade him. Also, with Marmol, it is their right to want to try and sign him. After having spoken with Fire officials about Marmol in the recent past I believe their interest in the player is genuine, even though Marmol’s interest in playing for the Fire is pretty non-existent.

If I were a betting man I would bet good money that Marmol doesn’t play in MLS in 2008. I’ll get into more detail on that situation next week.

Back to yesterday’s post.

The three items that people should have noted in the piece were the escape clause in Osorio’s Fire contract, the fact that the Fire courted Osorio behind the backs of Millonarios and the news that Guppy had been in touch with Osorio before he fired Dave Sarachan. I didn’t recall any of these items being written about before (though the previous two were widely-believed to have happened. I am here to confirm that they did.)

And no, the post wasn’t an attempt to stir up the hornet’s nest that is the Fire-Red Bulls rivalry, but rather to follow up on a situation that Fire owner Andrew Hauptman brought to light recently. Hopefully it will be the last we hear about this situation.

I will get back to cranking out the posts shortly so keep an eye out for Soccer on TV, some more Q&A, a You Write the Caption (assuming I can find a good photo) as well as some other tidbits before the day is through.

This entry was posted in Major League Soccer, MLS- Chicago Fire, MLS- New York Red Bulls. Bookmark the permalink.

59 Responses to Noon-time Musings

  1. kpugs says:

    Oops…I just focused on the hypocritical whining by the Fire owners and fans. My bad!

  2. Appo Mattox says:

    Actually, Ives, Hauptman revealed the poorly-kept secret that there was an Osorio out clause in this article on Wednesday in the Daily Herald.

    link to dailyherald.com

    And the courting of Osorio without going through Millionaros and doing it before the actual firing of Sarachan should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who knows how Guppy works.

    And, sadly, how the Chicago Fire works now.

  3. Tom says:

    What do your “contacts” say about the resignation of Marc de Grandpre at RBNY?

    Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Will the resignation of Mr. “I don’t know anything about soccer but I the coach must win the cup each year” lessen the sense of urgency?

    What are Red Bulls plans?

  4. Ives says:

    Appo, I meant the actual details of the clause, not the actual existence of the clause. I acknowledged in yesterday’s post that a few different papers in the Chicago area with stories on Hauptman mentioned the clause as far back as late last week, so it actually wasn’t the Daily Herald that had it first.

  5. dabull says:

    Ives,

    What are the feelings of the Red Bulls FO (and NYRB fans) about Osorio’s escape clause? Do they feel shafted that they had to give the Fire all that compensation when in fact they could have waited 30 days and had him for free? I believe that’s where the real story is. Why did Osorio essentially screw over a team that he wanted to coach? There seems to be something more to this story than is being written about right now.

  6. I hate Ives says:

    Your dumb

  7. dabull says:

    Also, there didn’t seem to be too much ill will between the Fire and Millionaros considering the Fire were able to purchase Wilman Conde from them for around $300,000 (which is one reason they don’t want to give him up for basically nothing). I also think that dealings between MLS and Columbian teams are different than dealings with teams within MLS.

  8. SkepticBlog says:

    Ives-

    Why didnt you credit the chicago paper you got your hauptman quotes from? It seems to me you’re just regurgitating info that is already out there w/o giving proper credit to a source. I understand that most times you cant quote most times, but you couldve at least linked the article so people could read Hauptman’s quotes for themselves

  9. Pete says:

    I know I should just ignore this, but attempting to insult someone’s intelligence while using the incorrect “your” is just too easy to pass up.

    I would comment on how this reflects on Fire fans, but, clearly, it must’ve been a DC fan who wrote it.

  10. dabull says:

    Here’s a link to the article on the Hauptman interview in the Daily Herald (Chicago) by Orrin Schwarz:

    link to dailyherald.com

  11. dabull says:

    Sorry for posting the link again. I didn’t see it in a previous post.

  12. Ives says:

    Skeptics, the quotes were in three different stories that came out in the past few days (all part of the same group interview so I’m told). If it were one story in one paper I would have linked to that story (My track record when it comes to linking to stories is here for everyone to see, you might want to look beyond one post).

    I state clearly that Hauptman’s comments were in Chicago newspapers. As for allowing readers to read Hauptman’s quotes, I’d like to think my readers are sharp enough to use google to find the quotes, which I’m sure most did.

    And what information in the story was found elsewhere? Please do tell. Other than the fact that Hauptman revealed the existence of a clause, everything else is information I uncovered through my own reporting.

  13. Drew says:

    dabull – exactly! there IS more to the story, but ives doesn’t have that side of it (the fire’s), so ultimately it will remain a one sided story until/if the fire organization feels the need to respond. it doesn’t appear like they feel the need to battle publicly and use a mouthpiece like ives like the osorio/red bulls do. luis clearly states in his blog today that there is another side to the story but it’s off the record.

  14. Matt says:

    So let me get this straight. Both the current Chicago owner and Ives’ source (presumably someone close to Osorio) admit that the escape clause existed. Yet Osorio chose not to exercise it, Chicago got a nice healthy compensation package and yet it’s Chicago fans who are playing the victim and acgting aggrieved. If anyone should be upset, it’s Red Bulls fans. Our front office gave away an awful lot for something they could have gotten for free.

  15. Drew says:

    kudos to your reporting (seriously) but what about the other side of the coin ives? do you see why some of us think this is a one sided report?

  16. Drew says:

    Matt – i totally agree that RB fans should be pissed too. Unfortunately the whole situation is a mess.

  17. Ives says:

    Guys, the Schwarz guy was the last guy to the party on the Hauptman quotes. He was about six days later than some others, including this one:

    link to southtownstar.com

    That’s Nick Firchau’s story. His and one other paper’s story had the comments if I recall correctly.

  18. Matt says:

    Ives, any chance that this Osorio situation has anything to do with De Grandpre’s departure?

  19. dabull says:

    Matt – NYRB fans should be pissed and be asking questions to why this whole situation occured. As Luis stated in his blog there is another side of this story that hasn’t been told yet (basically, Osorio was not a saint toward the Fire as Ives insinuates).

    Also Ives, there’s no point in getting into a pissing contest about which article about Hauptman came out first. The quotes from all the articles are all from the same dinner Hauptman had with several members of the Chicago media. Some papers just published it at different times. Who really cares?

  20. brant says:

    I was looking for some running commentary on yesterday’s UEFA Cup matches… especially Bayern’s comeback!

  21. Ives says:

    Da Bull, I’m not the one getting bent out of shape because there was no link to one of the handful of stories that had Hauptman’s comments in them. I was just clarifying for the person who was.

  22. Matt says:

    dabull – perhaps, but the Fire should have realized that JCO might not be in it for the long run when he asked or the escape clause in his contract and Guppy went along with it.

    One thing is clear – both front offices screwed up monumentally.

  23. Ives says:

    Matt, who ever said Osorio asked for that clause?

  24. Rocco says:

    Ives – you don’t have to defend yourself. Your work speaks for itself. You did a great job reporting, keep it up.

  25. SkepticBlog says:

    Ives,

    “As for allowing readers to read Hauptman’s quotes, I’d like to think my readers are sharp enough to use google to find the quotes, which I’m sure most did.”

    So why make a post at all? It certainly didnt shed any light on anything if you had already read the article. I’m in no way questioning your writing, it just makes wonder what kind of motives went into what came off, to me, as an article intended to further a certain POV on the “situation.”

  26. Matt says:

    Ives – I juts assumed. Why would it be in his contract if he hadn’t asked for it.

  27. Bill says:

    Hey “I hate Ives” — don’t you mean “you’re dumb” instead of “your dumb”? Glass houses, man.

  28. dabull says:

    Matt – for full disclosure, when Osorio was hired by the Fire he did say that it was his intention to use this job as a stepping stone for a job in Europe. If he had gone to Europe, there wouldn’t be this issue. Instead many people view his move to NYRB as a lateral move, at best. He also rubbed the Fire FO the wrong way and did not part on good terms (which is the other side of the story that hasn’t been told yet). This also brings into question why he didn’t exercise that escape clause. I highly doubt it was just because he’s a stand-up guy and wanted the Fire to get a lot of money from his future employer. It seems he either screwed over the Fire or Red Bulls or both. Like I said before, it seems there’s a lot more to this story than has been told so far.

  29. Matt says:

    dabull – I’m sure you’re inclined to view it that way. Whatever makes you feel better. Not that it has any basis in reality other than Hauptman’s understandable frustration with losing his coach to NY.

  30. Ives says:

    Listen Ethan, I mean Skeptic, if you can’t tell the difference between what I wrote and the Hauptman stories that were out there, if you can’t decipher what information I provided that was different from those stories, I really don’t know what to tell you.

  31. Mikemike says:

    Ives…..pick me….pick me…I know what to tell him!

  32. FC Uptown says:

    For the photo caption what about this one:

    link to i265.photobucket.com

  33. dabull says:

    I guess I should explain myself a little further. The question I am trying to get at is why aren’t NYRB fans questioning their FO about having to pay the Fire $500,000 and give them $300,000 in allocation money and a couple of draft picks to talk to a coach that they could have gotten for free? If I were a NYRB fan (or a reporter that covers them) I would be demanding answers from Osorio and the FO.

    How do NYRB fans honestly feel about this???

  34. EDB says:

    Ives , are coaches contract with the MLS like players or do they belong to teams? I wonder what part the MLS played in the red bulls paying compensation.

  35. Matt says:

    dabull – There are some questions being asked about it now, thanks to Ives’ reporting. Most of us here in the NY/NJ area don’t read the Chicago papers too closely. But I don’t know if we’ll ever get any good answers. The RBNY FO is not exactly the most forthcoming with information.

  36. Ethan(Skeptic) says:

    Ives,

    Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the blog. I guess I was a little disappointed that you wrote a piece completely thru Redbull coloured glasses. I suppose I thought your writing was a little “above” the tone you took in the piece. I’ll continue to enjoy the blog and I do appreciate your work, but I will be doing so with a large grain of salt from here on out.

  37. Steve O says:

    Are Fire fans really accusing Ives of a one-sided report? All we heard out of Chicago for weeks during the Osorio switch were one-sided reports from the Chicago media. I have heard everything I need to hear from them, and from their retard owner.

  38. Rob C says:

    All I can say is:

    The games between Chicago and New York this year are going to be amazing! That’s all I really care about out of this whole thing, even as an RBNY fan. I would have liked to have Conde and Marmol but I’m resigned to the fact that it’s not going to happen. The games themselves will be very interesting. I’m hoping the front-office feud fuels the rivalry.

  39. Haig says:

    What’s hilarious, and by hilarious I mean really effing stupid, is that some of these Chicago fans think Ives is some sort of fan. Red Bull barely tolerates him, in some sort of deluded payback for Ives’ unflattering articles about poor decision-making by the front office.

  40. Ives says:

    Ethan, what makes you think my sources throughout this whole thing have come from only one side? That’s probably the biggest misconception out there.

    And if we’re talking about reports through colored glasses, how many two-sided reports have come out of Chicago on this whole issue? My reporting has more details because I have more sources on both sides of the issue. Just because the things that have been uncovered have made Chicago look bad doesn’t mean my sources are all NY-based.

    And Ethan, it’s cool, we don’t have to agree on everything, I appreciate that you read the site.

  41. David W says:

    Ives, I love you, and I agree with your Guevara article, but don’t you think you should have mentioned, for purposes of full disclosure, about that incident with you and Guevara when you tried to interview him at last year’s Gold Cup. I think he was wrong to refuse to single you out and refuse to speak to the press unless you left, but I think you should mention that when you devote an article to covering Guevara, especially as a columnist.

    I’m sure you had a good reason for not mentioning this incident. I’m just wondering what happened. Did you and Amado decide to forgive each other?

  42. dabull says:

    Ives,

    I basically agree with the facts in your post and was surprised it took so long for you to comment on it (but it did seem to have a negative Chicago spin to it). When are you going to write about why Osorio made NYRB pay Chicago what essentially amounts to $800,000 when there apparently was no need to? That would be a great story.

    Also, who were your Chicago sources (outside of the newspaper articles)? I’m not looking for names, just were they higher ups in the Fire FO or just other reporters? That would help shed more light onto the story.

  43. Christian says:

    Hey David, what exactly happened with Guevara and Ives, I seem to vaguely remember but I can’t recall details, would you mind refreshing my memory?

  44. martha c says:

    Ives,

    Who invited Guppy down to Millionariois’s training camp and granted him access. I doubt you and I would be able to walk in and watch practice.

    It takes two to tango.

    SO PLEASE STOP MAKING JCO OUT TO BE THE VICTIM!

    Most Fire fans admit Guppy is a little shady…

    Red star fans have to admitt JCO is no angel either.

    Man has no respect for ANY rules ….

  45. David W says:

    @ Christian

    Ives wrote about this on the blog last summer. After Honduras’s first game at the Gold Cup at Giants Stadium, Ives went down to the locker rooms to talk to players. Guevara recognized Ives and refused to talk to the assembled reporters as long as Ives would be able to hear him. It was very petulant and all too typical of Amado’s time with the Metrostars; apparently, Amado didn’t like it when Ives wrote some opinion articles about how poorly Guevara was playing toward the end of his Metro/Red Bulls tenure.

  46. dabull says:

    Osorio probably allowed Guppy to the training camp. People forget that Guppy and Osorio have had a relationship since their days with the Metrostars. Guppy even considered hiring JCO to coach the Metrostars (Ives, correct me if I’m worng). It is widely acknowledged that Guppy can be an idiot, bur this also shows that Osorio has no sense of ethics either. This would bring into question his actions during the end of his tenure with the Fire as well.

  47. Chris Rolfe says:

    Matt- you are an embarrasment to the rest of the fire fans, I have been reading your post on here and on the RED CARD blog….. you know nothing about soccer so Shutup

  48. Matt says:

    Chris Rolfe, what are you talking about? I never posted anything on the Red Card blog and I’m not a Fire fan. Wrong guy, sorry.

  49. Reid says:

    Ives any word yet on who is gonna be the coach of NYRB next year?

    Fire fans need to calm down, lets get this straight they got $800k for a coach who went to a team that never keep them after 1yr. So after he gets fired, Chicago can get him back. After $800k, a draft pick and now full knowledge of the workings of NYRB Osorio will be back in Chicago.

    Guppy and Osorio had it planned from the start…. Diabolical!

  50. MemRook says:

    Totally off-topic:

    I want to congratulate Ives on getting the format of this blog back to normal. It’s nice to see all the comments on one screen. Hoorah for Ives!

    Totally on-topic:

    As a completely unbiased fan (meaning, I have no specific club affiliation), I didn’t think Ives over-stepped any boundaries. While Ives is a reporter, this is not a newspaper; it’s a blog. Blogs have different rules and criteria. They’re FUN to read. I like news from newspapers too, but they are so restricted sometimes. Blogs are more entertaining and fun. (Photo Caption Contests for instance).

    To posters like “I hate Ives,” seriously? If you are a soccer fan, do you not recognize the the value of information from this blog and others like it? Where can you find information on your favorite clubs and players like this in one site? Not many, that’s for sure. So grow up a little. (“Your dumb”? Your dumb what?)

    Ives, great work.

  51. brett says:

    Reid- you couldnt be more wrong Reid…. RBNJ kept Arena for 1 1/2 seasons…. lets get the facts straight :D

  52. MemRook says:

    AHHHH! I was wrong! The format isn’t different, just the amount of comments per page is higher. Arghhhhhhhh. lol.

  53. Bill and Pete and MemRook is dumb says:

    MemRook and Pete and Bill, your dumb

  54. MemRook says:

    MY dumb if I didn’t see that coming. Nice one.

  55. Chris Rolfe says:

    sorry matt…. assumed you were the one talking trash on me on the fire blog- ROLFIE

  56. Kosh71 says:

    Hey Matt, I’m going to have to appologize for Chris Rolfe’s mixup there, you know considering the fact that Matt is so unique a name that only one person can have it. Now I have read Ives posts and enjoyed watching the venom that it sparks between Fire and NYRB fans. This is MLS, I love it!!

    As a DC fan, while I love the slugfest, I think both sides should shut it and save that venom for the matches. FUEL THAT RIVALRY BABY!! :)

    Seriously though, I have to agree with Matt on this one, Ives. Why on Earth did RBNY FO splash out that obscene compensation package for something they could have had for free? Yeah I hear the, compassion spin, but at the end of the day these are businessmen and better yeat competitors. When was the last time you saw a competitor splash out close to a mil because of compassion and the kindness of their heart? I dunno, Ives, I think you have a story there that you should dig into. But hey, if RBNY fans are too narrowminded to recognize that, and just want to slag off on the FIRE and their fans…then by all means, please continue. All I get to do is read and laugh.

  57. Joamiq says:

    I was going to say that most people probably know about the history between Ives and Guevara, but I guess not. Ives has disclosed it in the past, and I’m not really concerned about it affecting his work.

    But Ives, dude, I am concerned about these multi-page comments. They suck. It makes me not want to read all the comments on posts with a lot of them.

  58. Joamiq says:

    Oh, I should also mention: I am a Red Bull fan, and I DO want to know why we paid for what we could have gotten for free.

  59. Matt says:

    Kosh – I should probably pick another handle. In any case, there is probably a story there, but I doubt we’ll ever get to the bottom of it. I may just have the mind of a conspiracy theorist, but I think there is something to De Grandpre leaving the organization so soon after the story emerged about this get out clause in Osorio’s contract.